Engineered form of Buddhism

A place to compare and contrast Dharmic traditions, debates allowed, but be polite.
Post Reply
User avatar
Dharmasherab
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:44 am

This is a hypothetical question.

Lets say that important monastics, ordained members and scholars of all (most) traditional lineages of Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana met in the form of a council and decided to engineer a form of Buddhism by combining all the important practices and teachings of all types of Buddhism then how should this happen?

What are the obstacles and caveats for this process of compiling all the different teachings and practices in all types of Buddhism together?

Notice that this post has got nothing to do with forcing people to accept this 'hypothetical form of engineered Buddhism'. So comments along those lines wont be necessary.

Also please note that I mentioned 'traditional' (this means that it does not include 'New Buddhist movements' such as Secular Buddhism)

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:59 am

Chan Buddhism, the precursor to Zen (in Japan) is sort of like a "One Dharma" or "Buddhayana" all-inclusive Buddhism.

They have monastic clergy members of monks and nuns (similar to Theravada).
They chant Amitabha (Pure Land).
They practice Chan meditation (similar to Zen and Theravada meditations).
They are Mahayana and have beautiful temples, lots of colors, statues (similar to Vajrayana-Tibetan Buddhism).

So without creating something too drastically new, they are pretty close to what might be called Buddhayana. I like Chan Buddhism and have practiced and visited at some of their temples, even though I am primarily Theravada.

User avatar
Dharmasherab
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Dharmasherab » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:59 pm

Ah that is interesting. Usually people assume that Chan is a different form of Zen/Seon/Thien (noticing that Chan is the likely precusror of all these latter schools). But I personally was not aware of this till you told me.

Its just that there are various different practices seemed to be beneficial in different schools/sects of Buddhism. Like Nyingma/Bon have the Dzogchen practice, Kagyu has Mahamudra, Gelug have their LamRim, there is Ngondro practice in all schools of Tibetan Buddhism as preliminaries. Then in Chan/Zen they have their version of sitting meditation (Zazen) and a lot more. In Theravada there are the Satipatthana meditations and Vipassana. Also in the different schools of Buddhism have their own texts. I do appreciate there can be overlaps between the pathways of practice but surely there are differences too which is what makes these different schools/sects distinct.

I do understand that these different schools have their own view which may not be shared by other schools and one element in one pariticular school can be defined in a different manner in another school. So this can be an obstacle to engineer a form of Buddhism where the views of one aspect of one type of Buddhism has to be compromised to accomodate the views of another.

Its just that it appears the different practices and theories have their benefits in different ways. That hypothetically speaking if a form of Buddhism was engineered to encompass all these beneficial practices then the followers would get the maximum benefit from following them.

User avatar
Nicholas
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:21 pm
Location: California

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Nicholas » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:02 pm

As David mentioned, it has already happened. Both Je Tsongkhapa & my late Master Hsuan Hua pointed out that because Buddha taught 84,000 dharma doors, each targeted to a specific type of mind, any sadhana will lead toward bodhi. Of course, the appeal must be there, so a person in one lifetime may be attracted to X cultivation method. In their next life method Z may appeal more.

The danger I see in a engineered system by a council of Buddhist elders is it being premature. Already there are regular meetings of varied ethnic & sectarian groups & Sangha members. But there is still too much natural favoritism for the lineage each Sangha knows and loves. After all, if great Sages pop up in all sects, then no need to fix what is not broken.

Right now the main external dangers to the Buddha's dispensation is money, secularism & Islam. So mutual support yes, but never mind now a global councils of elders deciding on the best cultivation practices.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- Buddha

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:02 pm

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 am

Would someone like to comment further on Ch’an. Are there any Esoteric-style visualization methods? I am primarily practicing Mahamudra at the moment in the context of TB.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

User avatar
Iconodule
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Iconodule » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:17 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 am
Would someone like to comment further on Ch’an. Are there any Esoteric-style visualization methods? I am primarily practicing Mahamudra at the moment in the context of TB.
Chan by and large absorbed the other Chinese Buddhist schools, so a plethora of different practices have continued. I imagine it is possible that some kind of tantric practice is being done somewhere. Strictly speaking, though, Chan is sutric and the idea that the Vajrayana is a quicker path for more advanced disciples would probably not get much traction.
The ladder that leads to the Kingdom is hidden within you, and is found in your soul. Dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the rungs by which you are to ascend. - St. Isaac of Syria

Herb Caplan
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:18 pm
Location: New York, New York

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Herb Caplan » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:45 am

Then you will have yet another form of Buddhism.

Image
If you meet the Buddha (blessed be the arahant) on the road, kill him.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:54 pm

Yes, that's a good point. I think all major religions have made attempts at reconciling all of their sects and denominations into one 'super' denomination that is all-encompassing (as much as possible). And what results is just another form of that religion.

Best to go with Chan, if that is what one wants, as that has been in place for centuries and is very all-encompassing and has some great doctrines and practices too.

Nightbird
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Nightbird » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Iconodule wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:17 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 am
Would someone like to comment further on Ch’an. Are there any Esoteric-style visualization methods? I am primarily practicing Mahamudra at the moment in the context of TB.
Chan by and large absorbed the other Chinese Buddhist schools, so a plethora of different practices have continued. I imagine it is possible that some kind of tantric practice is being done somewhere. Strictly speaking, though, Chan is sutric and the idea that the Vajrayana is a quicker path for more advanced disciples would probably not get much traction.
I think it is a mistake to think Chan is sutric. While it is true that every form of Buddhism will on occasion quote the Buddhas words, Chan makes it clear from the very start that words are not what Chan is about. In fact, the idea of 'path' becomes very dubious when confronted by a Chan master like Huangbo.

User avatar
Iconodule
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:33 pm

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Iconodule » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:33 pm

Nightbird wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:56 pm
Iconodule wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:17 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:45 am
Would someone like to comment further on Ch’an. Are there any Esoteric-style visualization methods? I am primarily practicing Mahamudra at the moment in the context of TB.
Chan by and large absorbed the other Chinese Buddhist schools, so a plethora of different practices have continued. I imagine it is possible that some kind of tantric practice is being done somewhere. Strictly speaking, though, Chan is sutric and the idea that the Vajrayana is a quicker path for more advanced disciples would probably not get much traction.
I think it is a mistake to think Chan is sutric. While it is true that every form of Buddhism will on occasion quote the Buddhas words, Chan makes it clear from the very start that words are not what Chan is about. In fact, the idea of 'path' becomes very dubious when confronted by a Chan master like Huangbo.
Well, words are not what any Buddhist tradition is about. Every Buddhist tradition recognizes that there is a certain point where doctrine is meaningless without practice and the written/ spoken principles are only pointers to something that needs to be experientially realized. That doesn't change the fact that Chan- including in its transcendence of the scriptures (see Lankavatara Sutra, for instance)- is based on the sutras and not esoteric initiations of Vajrayana.
The ladder that leads to the Kingdom is hidden within you, and is found in your soul. Dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the rungs by which you are to ascend. - St. Isaac of Syria

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:18 am

From this thread over at DWT:
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 1633f7fe7e

just found out about Ven. Vupasama. He sounds interesting and his ideas seem similar to mine, in regard to the search for a pre-Ashokan "original buddhism."

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:20 am

He is the Dhamma lineage successor who has restored and revitalized the original teaching of Buddha Sākyamuni which was dormant for nearly 2200 years.

Master Vūpasama has not only succeeded the Dharma lineage of Original Buddhism, he is also knowledgeable in all schools of Chinese Buddhism, and in the ideologies of the three Indian Bodhisattva Schools, namely "Prajñā," "Yogācāya," and "Tathāgata-garba." In addition, he has profound practical and teaching experience in the ideologies of "Prajñā-Pāramitā Sutras" and "Mādhyamikā commentary," as well as the meditation methods of the Chinese Zen School.
https://www.arahant.org/introduction-ven-bhikkhu

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:23 am

The Sambodhi Saṅgha adheres to the Suttas collected by the First Buddhist Council. It follows the fundamental practice of the Noble Saṅgha before the Buddhist schism, and continues transmitting the Suttas from the ancient tradition of Ānanda lineage and Upāli lineage. The Saṅgha abides by the Vinaya, and reinstates an orthodox Saṅgha that follows the Sutta and Vinaya.

The Saṅgha establishes Original Buddhism Societies in Taiwan, USA, Australia and Malaysia to guide the people to rediscover the Buddha’s path. The societies promote and transmit the true teaching of the Buddha in accordance with Causation and Four Noble Truths. It is Humanistic Buddhism that is applicable to both the mundane and supra-mundane worlds.

The objectives of Original Buddhism Society are to rediscover the Buddha's original teachings; to support a Saṅgha that abides by the Buddha’s original teaching and Vinaya; to adhere to the Sutta and Vinaya, respect the Saṅgha and unite lay devotees, uphold equal rights in gender and segregate religion from politics.
https://www.arahant.org/introduction-or ... sm-society

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:25 am

He was ordained by Ven. Baddanta Zagara Bhivamsa, a disciple of Ven. Ledi Sayadaw (C.E. 1846-1923) from a Burmese Theravada Saṅgha. Ven. Bhikkhu Vūpasama Thera is currently the chief mentor of the Original Buddhism Society in Taiwan, America, Malaysia, Australia, and Europe. He is also the mentor of "Sambodhi World" in Taiwan, Malaysia, and New York. All of his disciples including the "Sambodhi Saṅgha" practice Original Buddhism.

...

In 2015, the Master based on "Agama Sūtras," "Amitābha Sūtra," and "Vinaya-Mātika Sūtra" wrote "Three Stages of Mindfulness Recitation and Meditation of the Amitābha Buddha." He advocates the three stages of mindfulness of the Buddha: "chanting the name," "concentrating," and "realizing the truths" by observing the principle of Relevant Influencing (Nidānas). The Master uses this method to redirect “Dharma-Ending Age” back to “the Age of the Right Dharma.” This book points out an important message: "the practitioners of Amitābha school will actually become the practitioners of Original Buddhism; the practitioners of Original Buddhism are also the practitioners of Amitābha school." He promotes the idea that Original Buddhism and ChineseBuddhism are of the same family and will prosper in harmony in this new era.
https://www.arahant.org/introduction-ven-bhikkhu

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 3048
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:36 pm
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by DNS » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:29 am

I can't read the Chinese portions of the website, but based on the above intros, it appears my own views are in close alignment with this monk, even with the use of the same terminology in seeking an 'original buddhism.'

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Original_Buddhism

tkp67
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:15 am

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by tkp67 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:13 am

Even the comparative teaching require comparative basis and even attempts to consolidate through an ideology such as that of nichiren which seems to do this requires the diversity of teaching to develop understanding.

An essential part of some traditions recognition of contributors past is critical from karmic perspective

The later seems more difficult to incorporate this I feel the diverse ecosystem should be maintained

tkp67
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:15 am

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by tkp67 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:34 am

DNS wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:29 am
I can't read the Chinese portions of the website, but based on the above intros, it appears my own views are in close alignment with this monk, even with the use of the same terminology in seeking an 'original buddhism.'

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Original_Buddhism
The analogy of root (Dhama-Vinaya) of tree (manifest schools of Buddhism) comes to mind based on the diagram which lends credence to the concept of one doorway to describe a richer manifestation of many

through my eyes akin to nmrk in nichiren buddhism although I am not suggesting it is the same concept

User avatar
Nicholas
Posts: 860
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:21 pm
Location: California

Re: Engineered form of Buddhism

Post by Nicholas » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:46 pm

The Ven. V. mentions Ven. Yin Shun as a precursor to this synthesis of buddhadharma. Chinese Buddhism has always had a blending of traditions, both within and beyond Buddhism.

Consult the English version of Yin Shun's Way to Buddhahood and pretty much everything is there, organized in stages of the path style.

Vupasama's contribution mainly seems his Original Buddhism notion, doubt it will produce more quantity or quality of Sages than what has been furnished in the past.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- Buddha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests