Pope accused of Heresy

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Nicholas
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Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Nicholas » Wed May 01, 2019 12:45 pm

Seven accusations are made in an open letter to all Bishops by a group of theologians:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/promi ... pen-letter
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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by DNS » Wed May 01, 2019 8:29 pm

What are their main points or issues against the Pope?

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Nicholas » Wed May 01, 2019 11:40 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:29 pm
What are their main points or issues against the Pope?
Within the link is another one to the 20 page html document, but do not want you to be exhausted, so here it is....

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... holic.html
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- Buddha

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by DNS » Thu May 02, 2019 1:41 am

Nicholas wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:40 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:29 pm
What are their main points or issues against the Pope?
Within the link is another one to the 20 page html document, but do not want you to be exhausted, so here it is....
Yes, I saw that, but it's 20 pages long. I'm interested, but not that interested to sift through that. :tongue:

Can you outline their main points or issues, for example in a bullet listing?

For example:

The pope did x . . . .
The pope did y . . . .
The pope did z . . . .

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by DNS » Thu May 02, 2019 2:50 am

I skimmed the article and found these points of Heresy (according to the authors of the document):

We accuse Pope Francis of having, through his words and actions, publicly and pertinaciously
demonstrated his belief in the following propositions that contradict divinely revealed truth (for each
proposition we provide a selection of Scriptural and magisterial teachings that condemn them as
contrary to divine revelation; these references are conclusive but are not intended to be exhaustive.)

I. A justified person has not the strength with God’s grace to carry out the objective demands of the
divine law, as though any of the commandments of God are impossible for the justified; or as meaning
that God’s grace, when it produces justification in an individual, does not invariably and of its nature
produce conversion from all serious sin, or is not sufficient for conversion from all serious sin.

II. A Christian believer can have full knowledge of a divine law and voluntarily choose to break it in a
serious matter, but not be in a state of mortal sin as a result of this action.

III. A person is able, while he obeys a divine prohibition, to sin against God by that very act of
obedience.

IV. Conscience can truly and rightly judge that sexual acts between persons who have contracted a civil
marriage with each other, although one or both of them is sacramentally married to another person, can
sometimes be morally right, or requested or even commanded by God.

V. It is false that the only sexual acts that are good of their kind and morally licit are acts between
husband and wife.

VI. Moral principles and moral truths contained in divine revelation and in the natural law do not
include negative prohibitions that absolutely forbid particular kinds of action, inasmuch as these are
always gravely unlawful on account of their object.

VII. God not only permits, but positively wills, the pluralism and diversity of religions, both Christian
and non-Christian.

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Nicholas » Thu May 02, 2019 2:30 pm

Good for the summary David, I do not know any Catholic doctrine, or care much. Just thought the Accusation of a Pope was a big story.
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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Iconodule » Thu May 02, 2019 2:45 pm

As far as I recall, the last pope to get a churchwide condemnation for heresy was Honorius, at the 6th ecumenical council.

The trouble with Pope Francis is that he says a lot of things in a very sloppy way, and it's hard to tell if he means it or if it's just some ill-considered outburst. And like many politicians he likes to talk out of both sides of his mouth.

He's completely ignored the previous "correction" directed at him and I don't expect he'll react differently this time. As anyone knows who has dealt with entrenched, corrupt administrators, responding to criticism with silence or passive aggression is often the most effective way of burying dissent.
The ladder that leads to the Kingdom is hidden within you, and is found in your soul. Dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the rungs by which you are to ascend. - St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by DNS » Thu May 02, 2019 3:04 pm

This pope is probably the most liberal one in modern times. I say "modern times" because in the distant past there were some popes who fathered children and I believe there is at least one case of a pope who fathered a son, who also became a pope.

Some of the items listed above appear to him laying the path toward the Church allowing same-sex marriages?

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Iconodule » Thu May 02, 2019 3:54 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:04 pm
This pope is probably the most liberal one in modern times. I say "modern times" because in the distant past there were some popes who fathered children and I believe there is at least one case of a pope who fathered a son, who also became a pope.
Well, being "liberal" and being personally dissolute are two different things. Those infamous popes were not trying to effect an overturn of moral teaching, they just flouted it in their own lives.
Some of the items listed above appear to him laying the path toward the Church allowing same-sex marriages?
No, it has to do with divorce and remarriage. The modern Catholic Church, on paper, does not allow divorce, and anyone who obtains a civil divorce and remarries is classed as an adulterer and forbidden from the eucharist. However, the church also has its notorious system of annulments, where a marriage can be dissolved by declaring it invalid, that is, that the marriage never happened at all, because of this or that defect in the intention, the ceremony, or something else. Some Catholic couples, even those with children, have been able to obtain such annulments on quite flimsy grounds. This allows the Catholic Church to effectively allow divorces while still maintaining that they have maintained an eternal ban on divorce. This nifty bit of legal acrobatics has rightly struck many in and outside the church as hypocritical nonsense.

In this regard Pope Francis is just making a nudge toward recognizing things as they are instead of making people jump through hoops to satisfy this legalistic cant. Catholic "traditionalists" see this as tantamount to dogmatic revision, though really the church's present position is not as ancient as its proponents think. Of course the conservatives would likely see this as a slippery slope to same-sex marriage and other enormities.

I have more sympathy with them with regards to the Pope's apparent leveling of Christianity with other religions. And overall I get the sense that Pope Francis is not merely liberal but quite unprincipled and underhanded.
The ladder that leads to the Kingdom is hidden within you, and is found in your soul. Dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the rungs by which you are to ascend. - St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Pope accused of Heresy

Post by Nicholas » Thu May 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Two principals of Ignatius Press encourage some high priest at the Vatican to respond, not just ignore this Accusation:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/watch ... -of-heresy
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- Buddha

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